|
Post by Saalik on Dec 9, 2007 22:40:24 GMT
sorry i mean thats why i maintain my reserve on the subject. yes now i agree completely.... still i will just tell u a fact... there were 2 renowned islamic scholars who were sayyed who came to mauritius in ramadan for leading tarawih. so,i observed them.one of them just yawned without his mouth wide opened in a mehfil and didnt even put his hand near his mouth. i dont think a real sayyed would have done it as the real ones live completely according to sunnah and sharia When one has reserve one must not pronounce, especially on what one does not have sufficient & proper knowledge and experience in the related field. You say you have been in the sohbat of Kaamil Awliyah since childhood but you seem to have not benefitted much. Surely something must be wrong somewhere. Beloved Brother Shah Saahib have provided so much genuine evidences and you still stick to your own self based opinion on such subject. By the way do you have any authentic evidence to what you have said so far. It would be interesting to know that.
|
|
|
Post by Saalik on Dec 10, 2007 5:43:12 GMT
yes now i agree completely.... still i will just tell u a fact... there were 2 renowned islamic scholars who were sayyed who came to mauritius in ramadan for leading tarawih. so,i observed them.one of them just yawned without his mouth wide opened in a mehfil and didnt even put his hand near his mouth.i dont think a real sayyed would have done it as the real ones live completely according to sunnah and sharia
|
|
Fana fi Shaykh
Senior Member
Haiderium Qalandaram Mastam Banda-E-Murtaza Ali Haastam .
Posts: 4,959
|
Post by Fana fi Shaykh on Dec 10, 2007 11:11:43 GMT
Subhanallah, good observation. It sounds very much like Hadrat Shaykh al Islam wal Mulimeens speech in Karjan, Gujarat. This speech was in the biggest gathering I have ever seen in India on video. Sayyid Ruknuddin (Quoted by Shah Saheb) is Sayyid Shokat Ali's elder brother 'Khalifa of Shaykh al Islam'. who was sat by the feet of Hadrat during the speech. I must say Mohtaram ul Maqaam Fana fil Shaykh has done a great job in putting the speech in English. Maybe the admin should take note!!
Yes all the reference are taken from the Speech of Shakhul Islam Sahib Qibla , In the start of the discussion i already said i will provide the reference from one of the great scholar of this age and time , i did'nt mention the name of Hazrat Sahib because if i would have mention their name than no one would have made any contribution and create any discussion. We only could have get subhanallah and masha-allah from all the member's.
It was my idea to bring the name of Hazrat Sahib Qibla after providing all the daleel's.
Aur kya chahiye tujhko ae Khana-e-zaat Aaftabe Ashrafiya Taabindabad
|
|
Fana fi Shaykh
Senior Member
Haiderium Qalandaram Mastam Banda-E-Murtaza Ali Haastam .
Posts: 4,959
|
Post by Fana fi Shaykh on Dec 10, 2007 13:59:28 GMT
sorry i mean thats why i maintain my reserve on the subject. yes now i agree completely.... still i will just tell u a fact... there were 2 renowned islamic scholars who were sayyed who came to mauritius in ramadan for leading tarawih. so,i observed them.one of them just yawned without his mouth wide opened in a mehfil and didnt even put his hand near his mouth. i dont think a real sayyed would have done it as the real ones live completely according to sunnah and sharia When one has reserve one must not pronounce, especially on what one does not have sufficient & proper knowledge and experience in the related field. You say you have been in the sohbat of Kaamil Awliyah since childhood but you seem to have not benefitted much. Surely something must be wrong somewhere. Beloved Brother Shah Saahib have provided so much genuine evidences and you still stick to your own self based opinion on such subject. By the way do you have any authentic evidence to what you have said so far. It would be interesting to know that. Well said brother Saalik as the saying goes "Samajhdar ko ishaara kaafi hain aur na samajh ko nazara.
No matter insha-Allah " Maza Dikhlayega mehshar mein sehra Sayyedo ka"
Ae teeshnigahon batao hujum-e-Mehshar mein Nabi Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam ke haath mein kausar ka Jaamhain ke nahi
|
|
sajjad dar ashrafi
Valued Member
Buzurgo keh saath muth panga lo, bohat mehanga pare ga
Posts: 4,888
|
Post by sajjad dar ashrafi on Dec 10, 2007 19:07:00 GMT
Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu
ASALATU WASALAMU ALAYKA YA RASULLALLAH Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam
ALLAH TA ALLAH and his Rasool Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam know best
|
|
|
Post by Shahid A on Dec 10, 2007 22:17:04 GMT
Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu
Even with what has been said, and i am in no position to question this. But the way i see it is people look upto and respect sayeds so they should behave in the right manner and follow quran and sunnah. If they did then we wouldnt have any doubts or put up threads lik this.
Brother abdooljabbar, do the rifai sect pierce themselves in a state of hal or do they do it whenever they want.
|
|
Fana fi Shaykh
Senior Member
Haiderium Qalandaram Mastam Banda-E-Murtaza Ali Haastam .
Posts: 4,959
|
Post by Fana fi Shaykh on Dec 11, 2007 10:08:13 GMT
Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa BarakatuhuBrother abdooljabbar, do the rifai sect pierce themselves in a state of hal or do they do it whenever they want.
The word is not rifai , its rateeb.
We do Rateeb by sword's and Zarb and do raqs on burning coal , The true Kaamil Rifai shaykh's even cut the person in 3 pieces and put the zarb in eyes. Alhumdullilah all the above mention method are practice by us.
Kaamil Rifai master start reciting one Sher(if given permission i will share it here) while looking at the sky , the moment they see the vision of Gaus-Paak Radi Allahu anhu and Shaykh Syed Ahmed Rifai Radi Allahu anhu they cut the person in three peices. Although our shaykh never allow the pics and video's during rateeb but i will share some pic's from my friends Shaykh , they also practice raateeb with sword's.
There are different stages of rateeb.
One will say its haraam to shed ones blood like shia's do , but you see the Karam of Gaus Paak Radi Allahu anhu and Shaykh Syed Ahmed Ar-Rifai Radi Allahu anhu that when we put sword's in our stomach and chest not a single drop of blood is shed.
One more important point to note , No matter which ever part of the World Rateeb is been played , the moment people put the zarb and swords inside their body , Gilaaf at the Shrines of Shaykh Ahmed Rifai start tearing , this karamat has been seen by my own Uncle.
Not everyone and anytime can do the rateeb , One need a Kaamil Rifai master , The Master control all the activities and before rateeb all the Zarb and Sword are put near the feet of the master and master Recite some Dua's(which are only known to the master) and then give it to selected people.
In our Tariqa we recite the following couplets
MERA PIR JALALI HAIN , MAIN RIFAI HUN DEEWANA WAJAD MEIN JO APNE AA JAU MERE SAAMNE MAT AANA MERA PIR MERA PIR GAUS-E-AZAM DASTAGEER. Its a big Manqabat.
We also recite
Yaa Jilani Shayn Lillah Yaa Jilani Shayn Lillah
We also recite
Mera Gulshane Rifaiyya.
We also recite Yaa Hayuu ya Qayyum mast Qalander Jhoole lal Ali ke laal Jhoole laal.
All this manqabat's are recited on daff..
Qadiri Bagdadi Jilani Rifai Chisti Banda Nawazi hain Abdul Rahim ke Rang Jo bhi is rang mein rang jaaye chade na uspe koi rang
|
|
abdooljabbar
Amateur
almadad ya sayyad ahmad rifai Radi Allahu anhu
Posts: 72
|
Post by abdooljabbar on Dec 11, 2007 21:03:30 GMT
yes exactly.infact here in mauritius mawsiim or rateeb is performed while reciting mostly shadhili-rifai qasidas coming from african countries and the middle east.i have posted 2 of them on another topic, i think naat manqabat etc...
concerning cutting people into pieces my grand father who was a kamil rifai dervish use to do it.even now in private congregations such practices are still going on like in my zawiya,im still leading such zikrs despite the comments of some people.
here in mauritius,we recite 7 specific fateha,then there is a specific plea for help asked by the one in charge.though here,most people just come and pierce their bodies, i have kept it as a tradition or should i say as a rule, not to allow anyone using the swords until i give him permission.
some sunni ulemas say its haram as its against sharia to damage body tissues voluntarily.but they should see also the karamat in it that while taking the name of allah, of rasoulloullah (swa), abdul qadi al jilliRadi Allahu anhu and shamsus shumus imam rifaiRadi Allahu anhu theres no blood shed, no injuries etc...
|
|
PBUH
Senior Member
Posts: 762
|
Post by PBUH on Dec 12, 2007 0:13:44 GMT
Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa BarakatuhuBrother abdooljabbar, do the rifai sect pierce themselves in a state of hal or do they do it whenever they want.
The word is not rifai , its rateeb.
We do Rateeb by sword's and Zarb and do raqs on burning coal , The true Kaamil Rifai shaykh's even cut the person in 3 pieces and put the zarb in eyes. Alhumdullilah all the above mention method are practice by us.
Kaamil Rifai master start reciting one Sher(if given permission i will share it here) while looking at the sky , the moment they see the vision of Gaus-Paak Radi Allahu anhu and Shaykh Syed Ahmed Rifai Radi Allahu anhu they cut the person in three peices. Although our shaykh never allow the pics and video's during rateeb but i will share some pic's from my friends Shaykh , they also practice raateeb with sword's.
There are different stages of rateeb.
One will say its haraam to shed ones blood like shia's do , but you see the Karam of Gaus Paak Radi Allahu anhu and Shaykh Syed Ahmed Ar-Rifai Radi Allahu anhu that when we put sword's in our stomach and chest not a single drop of blood is shed.
One more important point to note , No matter which ever part of the World Rateeb is been played , the moment people put the zarb and swords inside their body , Gilaaf at the Shrines of Shaykh Ahmed Rifai start tearing , this karamat has been seen by my own Uncle.
Not everyone and anytime can do the rateeb , One need a Kaamil Rifai master , The Master control all the activities and before rateeb all the Zarb and Sword are put near the feet of the master and master Recite some Dua's(which are only known to the master) and then give it to selected people.
In our Tariqa we recite the following couplets
MERA PIR JALALI HAIN , MAIN RIFAI HUN DEEWANA WAJAD MEIN JO APNE AA JAU MERE SAAMNE MAT AANA MERA PIR MERA PIR GAUS-E-AZAM DASTAGEER. Its a big Manqabat.
We also recite
Yaa Jilani Shayn Lillah Yaa Jilani Shayn Lillah
We also recite
Mera Gulshane Rifaiyya.
We also recite Yaa Hayuu ya Qayyum mast Qalander Jhoole lal Ali ke laal Jhoole laal.
All this manqabat's are recited on daff..
Qadiri Bagdadi Jilani Rifai Chisti Banda Nawazi hain Abdul Rahim ke Rang Jo bhi is rang mein rang jaaye chade na uspe koi rang Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa BarakatuhuWell i am shocked i dont know why, i know i shouldnt be i just didnt think rateeb was practised in the traditional sunni communities in the sub-continent. I just assumed it was all from the middle east.
|
|
|
Post by Saalik on Dec 12, 2007 4:41:46 GMT
yes exactly.infact here in mauritius mawsiim or rateeb is performed while reciting mostly shadhili-rifai qasidas coming from african countries and the middle east.i have posted 2 of them on another topic, i think naat manqabat etc... concerning cutting people into pieces my grand father who was a kamil rifai dervish use to do it.even now in private congregations such practices are still going on like in my zawiya,im still leading such zikrs despite the comments of some people. here in mauritius,we recite 7 specific fateha,then there is a specific plea for help asked by the one in charge.though here,most people just come and pierce their bodies, i have kept it as a tradition or should i say as a rule, not to allow anyone using the swords until i give him permission. some sunni ulemas say its haram as its against sharia to damage body tissues voluntarily.but they should see also the karamat in it that while taking the name of allah, of rasoulloullah (swa), abdul qadi al jilliRadi Allahu anhu and shamsus shumus imam rifaiRadi Allahu anhu theres no blood shed, no injuries etc... Do you do the piercing of the body and tongue with hooks and walk in procession with tazias on the street with naked torso like the tamil and hindu do for their festivals. Any one leading prayers and zikr in the context of tasawwuf must at least be someone who follow the Sunnat of the beard of Sayyidinah Rasoolullah Sallal Laahu Ta'alaa Alayhi Wa Sallam as one of the main condition without forgeting the ijaazat of a Kaamil Shaikh. Are you in conformity with these conditions. Being still an adolescent, are you free from the tendency of following the nafs especially at the age of 20.
|
|
|
Post by treasure on Dec 12, 2007 8:46:37 GMT
What purpose does piercing or stabbing oneself provide?
What has this got to do with religion?
Surely those observing such rituals from the outside will either be put off or try to self harm and do damage to oneself.
I respect brother fana fil shaykh. Just confused.
|
|
Fana fi Shaykh
Senior Member
Haiderium Qalandaram Mastam Banda-E-Murtaza Ali Haastam .
Posts: 4,959
|
Post by Fana fi Shaykh on Dec 12, 2007 11:22:45 GMT
Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu
Well i am shocked i dont know why, i know i shouldnt be i just didnt think rateeb was practised in the traditional sunni communities in the sub-continent. I just assumed it was all from the middle east.Beloved brother Rateeb mehfil are very much part of Indian sufi circle and Khanka'h. Rateeb is played almost 60% of the darbar's in India. It has become ritual at many darbar's that the first Sandal at the shrine will be followed by Mehfil-e-Rifaiyya. Jazakallahu khayrun. Yaa Ghaus Al-Madad
|
|
Fana fi Shaykh
Senior Member
Haiderium Qalandaram Mastam Banda-E-Murtaza Ali Haastam .
Posts: 4,959
|
Post by Fana fi Shaykh on Dec 12, 2007 11:36:54 GMT
What purpose does piercing or stabbing oneself provide? What has this got to do with religion? Surely those observing such rituals from the outside will either be put off or try to self harm and do damage to oneself. I respect brother fana fil shaykh. Just confused. Please read the following post ashraf786.proboards15.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=qadri&thread=1157000685&page=1Not a single person has been hurt in Mehfil-e-Rateeb. Can anyone tell me how a person been cut into 3 pieces are alive , why the swords itself get broken when it is hit on the neck. This are also thropugh the Nazre Karam of Sarkar Gaus-Paak Radi Allahu anhu & Sarkar Ahmed Rifai Radi Allahu anhuWhy are everyone confused when Many Many pious awliya Allah has performed this Mehfil. Jazakallahu khayrun. Yaa Ahmed Rifai
|
|
Fana fi Shaykh
Senior Member
Haiderium Qalandaram Mastam Banda-E-Murtaza Ali Haastam .
Posts: 4,959
|
Post by Fana fi Shaykh on Dec 12, 2007 11:41:16 GMT
some sunni ulemas say its haram as its against sharia to damage body tissues voluntarily.but they should see also the karamat in it that while taking the name of allah, of rasoulloullah (swa), abdul qadi al jilliRadi Allahu anhu and shamsus shumus imam rifaiRadi Allahu anhu theres no blood shed, no injuries etc... I never come across any scholar's saying its haraam. No big scholar has said anything against rateeb , forget about this little molvi's who give fatwa out of jealousy and for the sake of money.
MOLVI RUME HARR GEEZ NA SHUD MAULA-E-RUME TA GHULAMANE SHAMS TABREZ NA SHUD
|
|
Fana fi Shaykh
Senior Member
Haiderium Qalandaram Mastam Banda-E-Murtaza Ali Haastam .
Posts: 4,959
|
Post by Fana fi Shaykh on Dec 12, 2007 14:42:05 GMT
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu
ASALATU WASALAMU ALAYKA YA RASULLALLAH Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam
I look at the Rifaiyya mehfil also as a slap on Shia brigade. The Shia beat themselve taking the name of Maula Hussain-e-Paak alayhis 'salam and we Ghulaame Punjtan while playing rateeb insert the sword inside our body.
Ponder Shia took name of Grandfather(Imam Hussain alayhis 'salam) of Gaus Paak Radi Allahu anhu and Syed Ahmed Rifai Radi Allahu anhu and they got hurt and spill blood while we take name of Grandson's yet no one gets hurt and not a single drop of blood is spill.
Reason is simple we have special Nazre Karam of Ahle-Bayt Al Athar and on the other hand Shia Brigade have laanat from Ahle Bayt Al Athar.
JazakAllahu khayrun
Haqq Hussain Maula Hussain
|
|
|
Post by musaafir on Dec 12, 2007 14:53:02 GMT
Assalaam Alaikum
Shah ji, how long before wound heals in these cases?
Do only those that are in a state of wajd/jazb perform these acts or even sober people?
Is it neccassary or just a case of proving ones spiritual state?
I find this interesting!
PS Is it possible those in this state get the ziarat of these great AulyAllah Radi Allahu anhum or even greater hasti's e.g Prophets alayhim Assalam ,sahaba Radi Allahu anhum ajmaeen,imams of Ahle Bayt alayhim assalam?
|
|
Fana fi Shaykh
Senior Member
Haiderium Qalandaram Mastam Banda-E-Murtaza Ali Haastam .
Posts: 4,959
|
Post by Fana fi Shaykh on Dec 12, 2007 15:26:32 GMT
Assalaam Alaikum Shah ji, how long before wound heals in these cases?
Beloved brother there are no major wound's and blood shedding , The Kaamil Shaykh who has been bestowed with the Rateeb gift control the mehfil's and Wajd of the people. The sword's break down in many cases.
People goes in Wajd the Kaamil Shaykh select his disciple who he bestowed with these gift and he control they Wajd with his spiritual power's , sometimes while listening to the Zikr some sober person also goes in ecstacy and Kaamil Shaykh controls him too.
The zikr with Swords is part of Rifaiyya silsilah sinces ages. Rateeb mehfil is organised during Urs ceremonies and on 11th of every month. All the people who play the Rateeb with swords are in the state of Wajd and are spiritually uplifted.
The Kaamil Shaykh sees the vision of Gaus-Paak Radi Allahu anhu and Syed Ahmed Rifai Radi Allahu anhu.
If some one wants to understand on how rateeb in the rifai's sisila i would request them to get a book called when you hear hoof beats think off a zebra...
JazakAllahu khayrun
Mera Pir Jalali hain Main Rifai hun Deewana
|
|
abdooljabbar
Amateur
almadad ya sayyad ahmad rifai Radi Allahu anhu
Posts: 72
|
Post by abdooljabbar on Dec 12, 2007 21:37:53 GMT
well i usually go to tazia procession,which is very much different to that done by shias and in india. in my congregation rateeb is mostly done with the khanqah.nobody goes naked as u r saying. i have see many clips of tazia in india well its very different here.
Concerning whether i am fit or not to lead such mehfil i wont give u a definite reply.i leave it for Allah to decide.but what i can say since the age of 9 i use to lead such zikr in the presence of other shaykhs in the rifaiyya shadhiliyya yashrutiyya aydourousiyya turuq and was given ijazat at the age of 15 to lead such mehfils on my own. and none of my students,none of the members in my jamaat has ever been bleeding alhamdulillah.
Since now i havent feel unfit for this task by the grace of the Almighty.
concerning my previous posts...i said it as a matter of fact.i said in earlier post to repected fana fi shaykh who are the true sadaats?
well i was referring to those fake sayyad who pompusly call themselves so. A real sayyad in himself should be an example in every aspects.
Thats why i show reserve on those who call themselves sayyad or in their names there is 'sayyad' and they do not follow the sunnah in their daily moves and also those who do not give a real example to the umma.
|
|
abdooljabbar
Amateur
almadad ya sayyad ahmad rifai Radi Allahu anhu
Posts: 72
|
Post by abdooljabbar on Dec 12, 2007 22:10:07 GMT
'Being still an adolescent, are you free from the tendency of following the nafs especially at the age of 20.'
brother saalik,when one finds the pleasure, the fun and entertainment in zikr why should he follow other tendencies. no matter his age etc...
|
|
|
Post by Saalik on Dec 13, 2007 17:59:02 GMT
'Being still an adolescent, are you free from the tendency of following the nafs especially at the age of 20.' brother saalik,when one finds the pleasure, the fun and entertainment in zikr why should he follow other tendencies. no matter his age etc... How beneficial it would be if when concerning a Sayyad you think in this sense: When one is a Sayyad by blood lineage why should factors like yawning or not being bearded matter. By the way my question was a direct one and not passive. Do you mean that you have no other tendencies for a 20 year adolescent apart from being in zikr most of the times. If this is true in reality as it is literally appearing, then I honestly say Subhaanallah!
|
|