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Post by Saalik on Dec 13, 2007 19:48:45 GMT
well i usually go to tazia procession,which is very much different to that done by shias and in india. in my congregation rateeb is mostly done with the khanqah.nobody goes naked as u r saying. i have see many clips of tazia in india well its very different here. Concerning whether i am fit or not to lead such mehfil i wont give u a definite reply.i leave it for Allah to decide.but what i can say since the age of 9 i use to lead such zikr in the presence of other shaykhs in the rifaiyya shadhiliyya yashrutiyya aydourousiyya turuq and was given ijazat at the age of 15 to lead such mehfils on my own. and none of my students,none of the members in my jamaat has ever been bleeding alhamdulillah. Since now i havent feel unfit for this task by the grace of the Almighty. concerning my previous posts...i said it as a matter of fact.i said in earlier post to repected fana fi shaykh who are the true sadaats? well i was referring to those fake sayyad who pompusly call themselves so. A real sayyad in himself should be an example in every aspects. Thats why i show reserve on those who call themselves sayyad or in their names there is 'sayyad' and they do not follow the sunnah in their daily moves and also those who do not give a real example to the umma. About those who do piercing with hooks and go with naked torso in procession on the streets with tazia, is it in conformity with the Proper Rifaai Tariqa? As per the proper rules what are the prerequisites (inward and outward) that a Kaamil Shaikh look before giving ijaazat to anyone to lead spiritual practices in the path of tasawwuf? As for the bleeding, even when tamils do the piercing or walking on sharp sworded ladder for the cavadee festival, there is no bleeding. This is another big slap to the shias. What a shame. P.S. Please do not forget to answer about the 2 Sayyads you mentioned earlier. Were they Ashrafi Sayyads?
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ank92
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Muhammad ki mohabat deen e huq ki shartai awal hain...
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Post by ank92 on Dec 13, 2007 23:43:16 GMT
I admire your honesty brother.
brother a.jabbar we must remember it is wrong and woeful to spite a normal fellow muslim due to his/her bad actions so dont you think it is even worse to do it to the a descendant of Rasulai Kareem Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam?
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abdooljabbar
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Post by abdooljabbar on Dec 14, 2007 19:15:02 GMT
sorry i didnt get it? can you be more explicit. well if i got u right ,then my reply would be real sayyad do not leave any room for other to see their mistakes, a real sayyad is an example in every aspect. nowadays there are all types of sayyad as explained by a respected sunni alim from mauritius.in any case we can blame a real sayyad. Fake sayyads are easily identified in the crew
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abdooljabbar
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Post by abdooljabbar on Dec 14, 2007 19:25:08 GMT
And brother Salik im not perfect as we human beings leave mistake or commit sin voluntarily or involuntarilu. but i try to do my best to avoid what is wrong. And i ask forgiveness for the sins i could have done during the day knowingly and unknowingly. My studies,my family,my students,my shuyukh and my amaals/ibadaat are much more interesting and important than following general youth tendencies. i think the greatest pleasure in this world and for the world after is to search for Allah.Of course, one should not stay at home and care a damn about the community but should not follow the trends if it is against sharia. Since i lead a big congregation here in mauritius in the rifai shadhili tariqa, i am two times more alert concerning sins and bad deeds as i can't put a whole jamaat in wrong.
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Post by Saalik on Dec 14, 2007 21:06:18 GMT
Brother Abdool Jabbar, please do not forget to answer about the 2 Sayyads you mentioned earlier. Were they Ashrafi Sayyads or not? I have nothing personal against you but about your opinion on Sayyads. There is no harm in giving the due respects to someone who claims to be a Sayyad. If that person is not one, you have commited no wrong in respecting him but if that person is really a Sayyad then you have commited a great mistake in judging and doubting him according to your opinion on Sa'adat. Since we, the ordinary being, don't have the spiritual capacity to see this it is better that we give due respects to the one claiming to be a Sayyad until it is contrarily proven by valid facts and not based on appearance and personal opinions without any solid reference from the ahadith and scholars.
I would suggest that you read the thread all over again and reconsider your position on the matter. Up to now you have not given a single valid proof from any valid book or Kaamil Scholar. You must bear in mind that following ones own opinion is nothing but the path of loss.
The Ashrafi Sayyads who are real Sayyads beyond doubts are very well known and highly respected in Mauritius. If anyone of Them yawns without puting His hand before His mouth, that does not in any way disqualifies Him as a Sayyad. There is not a single scholar in the whole world who can prove the contrary.
I kindly request you to please answer all the questions that I have asked you because they will reveal what we don't know yet.
Jazaak Allah khairan.
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abdooljabbar
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Post by abdooljabbar on Dec 14, 2007 22:12:29 GMT
i dont know if they were ashrafiy or not infact this doesnt matter whether they are ashrafi,qadiri,chisty,shadhili... a sayad is a sayad i.e. a descendant of rasoulloullah. i will find a book written by a great shaykh in my library and will quote only a brief explanations on true saadat. then you will understand my position towards sayyads. i dont have anything against sayyadi but i am not ready to accept everybody who claims being a sayad as an ameer,as long as i am not convinced by the signs on a sayyadi face and by his actions(which should lie completely according to sharia and sunnah)....who said,we cant identify a true sayyadi???do not generalise it. everybody has all the info about himself on his face,if not on his palm.you just have to learn how to read it and how to capture and interprete the vibrations emitted by a person. c pas sorcier! well this is another issue. ask your shaykh to explain it to you. well mauritian are attached to Mawlana ashraf jilani(damat barakatul aliya) because first of all his a jilani and secondly because of his majestic personality,not because he is an ashrafiy
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abdooljabbar
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Post by abdooljabbar on Dec 14, 2007 22:28:48 GMT
And yes you are right one doesnt need to be a sayad to be respected. Imam rifaiRadi Allahu anhu put much emphasis on respect towards human beings,plants and animals. But if one calls himself a sayad and he himself is not setting an example and is not living according to sunnah and sharia and when we do a query by spiritual means to find the truth we find he is not a true sayyadi,should i keep quiet or say the truth? keep the true sayyad apart. the fake one,i cant stay quiet. if you cant identify between a tru sayadi and a fake one, dont think in the umma there is no person who can do so. i can assure you if you think like this you are wrong. a question was asked about sayyid, and i give my opinion.respect mine i respect yours. if you are from mauritius when i come there during holidays i willcome to meet you and bring you to a place where you can meet 'sayyids' who are hafiz quran but who wear shorts and small shirts showing their body and who sit near the shop smoking during prayer time.Maybe then you will understand what i mean as from my very first post.
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Post by madnibrother786 on Dec 14, 2007 23:11:45 GMT
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu
ASALATU WASALAMU ALAYKA YA RASULLALLAH Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam
I look at the Rifaiyya mehfil also as a slap on Shia brigade. The Shia beat themselve taking the name of Maula Hussain-e-Paak alayhis 'salam and we Ghulaame Punjtan while playing rateeb insert the sword inside our body.
Ponder Shia took name of Grandfather(Imam Hussain alayhis 'salam) of Gaus Paak Radi Allahu anhu and Syed Ahmed Rifai Radi Allahu anhu and they got hurt and spill blood while we take name of Grandson's yet no one gets hurt and not a single drop of blood is spill.
Reason is simple we have special Nazre Karam of Ahle-Bayt Al Athar and on the other hand Shia Brigade have laanat from Ahle Bayt Al Athar.
JazakAllahu khayrun
Haqq Hussain Maula Hussain Mashallah subhanallah, too right there shah sahib. Beautiful
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Post by Saalik on Dec 15, 2007 6:19:51 GMT
Some questions are still unanswered......so please Brother Abdul Jabbar do the necessary. By the way my Beloved Shaikh (Rahmatullahu Alai) has forbidden his Mureeds to go into querry about anyone by spiritual means because it does not contribute in any way in the quest to seek closeness to Allah Subhaanahu Wa Ta'alaa. A mature, wise and well guided seeker on the spiritual path does not do these things. This is the tendency of the inexperienced and uninformed.
I want to know whether the piercing of the body with hooks and going in procession with naked torso on the streets is in conformity with the true teaching of the Rifai Silsilah.
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abdooljabbar
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Post by abdooljabbar on Dec 15, 2007 9:21:21 GMT
not at all.it is not in conformity with rifai zikr. tazia here is much like a matam for shia rather than a rifai zikr. see this quote from the book qala'id al jawahir by shaykh muhammad ibn yahya at tadifi "ahmad ibn ali ibn ahmad abul abbas ar rifaiRadi Allahu anhu was the shaykh of the bata'ihis.he used to reside in Umm Ubayda.he was endowed with charismatic talents and high spiritual stations. His companions performed death defying feats,such as riding lions and playing with snakes.One of them climbs on the top of the highest date palm,then throws himself down on the ground,without feeling any pain.they hold a festival gathering every year and it attracts a huge crowd of people." this is according to the tarikh of shaykh samshuddinRadi Allahu anhu,the grandson of al jawziRadi Allahu anhu. here it is not mentionned whether they were walking naked but i dont think if they were naked on the road stabbing themselves like in cavadee shaykh ahmad rifaiRadi Allahu anhu and the other shuyukh at that time would have approved it. well you can say its is the tendency of the inexperienced and uninformed. What did you understand by spiritual means. My dear brother, you have much more to learn on spirituality as it is exactly before saying such things. getting into contact with jinns and souls are spiritual means. But Malaiic coming and giving you messages so that you can see the true nature of a person to avoid being trapped by them,ask your shaykh if this impossible,or reserved only for great wali and prophets(peace be upon them).these are not subject to be debated(spirituality,its too vast).stick to the subject.i gave you my opinion and that of a lot of alims.respect it mine respect your opinion.Concerning this issue its of no use to discuss. .spirituality cannot be discussed or debated by only mere words on a forum....neither you will be able to understand my position exactly nor would I.....
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Post by musaafir on Dec 15, 2007 12:32:48 GMT
I want to know whether the piercing of the body with hooks and going in procession with naked torso on the streets is in conformity with the true teaching of the Rifai Silsilah. I dont know if that happens in such mehfils or not so wont comment. I have read or heard in past of an event in which a majzub during the time of the Great Chisti Saint Hadrat Sulaman Taunsvi Radi Allahu anhu came riding a horse into town naked(obviously in a state of distracted mind spiritually),this would have upset people as he rode past Hadrat Sulamna Taunsvi Radi Allahu anhu Hadrat Sahib gave him just one stare of his nazr mubarak(blessed eyesight),immediately the majzub came back to a normal state,got of his horse and clothed himself. I have also read or heard that Hadrat Sulaman Taunsvi Radi Allahu anhu said(i believe i in regards to this event)that if Mansur Al Hallaj Radi Allahu anhu(who was put to death by authorities for claiming "i am the truth" in the early centuries due to a high state of spirituality) was around in my time he would not have been put to death. Subhaan Allah!
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Post by Saalik on Dec 15, 2007 15:58:28 GMT
not at all.it is not in conformity with rifai zikr. tazia here is much like a matam for shia rather than a rifai zikr. see this quote from the book qala'id al jawahir by shaykh muhammad ibn yahya at tadifi "ahmad ibn ali ibn ahmad abul abbas ar rifaiRadi Allahu anhu was the shaykh of the bata'ihis.he used to reside in Umm Ubayda.he was endowed with charismatic talents and high spiritual stations. His companions performed death defying feats,such as riding lions and playing with snakes.One of them climbs on the top of the highest date palm,then throws himself down on the ground,without feeling any pain.they hold a festival gathering every year and it attracts a huge crowd of people." this is according to the tarikh of shaykh samshuddinRadi Allahu anhu,the grandson of al jawziRadi Allahu anhu. here it is not mentionned whether they were walking naked but i dont think if they were naked on the road stabbing themselves like in cavadee shaykh ahmad rifaiRadi Allahu anhu and the other shuyukh at that time would have approved it. well you can say its is the tendency of the inexperienced and uninformed. What did you understand by spiritual means. My dear brother, you have much more to learn on spirituality as it is exactly before saying such things. getting into contact with jinns and souls are spiritual means. But Malaiic coming and giving you messages so that you can see the true nature of a person to avoid being trapped by them,ask your shaykh if this impossible,or reserved only for great wali and prophets(peace be upon them).these are not subject to be debated(spirituality,its too vast).stick to the subject.i gave you my opinion and that of a lot of alims.respect it mine respect your opinion.Concerning this issue its of no use to discuss. .spirituality cannot be discussed or debated by only mere words on a forum....neither you will be able to understand my position exactly nor would I..... The question about the prerequisites which a Kaamil Shaikh looks before giving ijaazat to anyone to lead spiritual practices in the path of Tasawwuf has not been answered. Whatever you are saying about Malaik coming and giving you messages so that you can see the true nature of a person to avoid being trapped by them, it is more wiser and safer if you ask your Shaikh and other Kaamil Shaikh about it. These questions have now arised: Is this also the role of Malaik Were they really Malaik What else also could they be Since you are confirming that piercing the body with hooks and going with naked torso in procession on the streets with tazia are NOT in conformity with Rifai Zikr this means that you are not a fan of this practice. So, do you recognize the tazia on the photo (one amongst others that are to come if need be) below:- Please don't be hasty to conclude whether I am sticking to the subject or not. I must also point out that nobody asked you to reveal what you have revealed about your spiritual practices and spirituality (may be you may now understand why I talked earlier about tendancy etc.,). Please check back what I asked you and what you replied instead, each time. Kindly be honest to admit who really is projecting the image of being spiritual or more than that, thus causing the discussion to become spiritual. In all that I am doing I am only squeezing to extract proofs that are totally in contradiction with whatever has been said as positive in respects of Sayyads so that it be further confirmed that only what has been said with Genuine and Valuable Proofs from Genuine and Valuable Scholars are to be taken as Genuine and Valuable Knowledge, not the contrary. I cannot be wrong on this, I have done my task of asking you to reconsider your position by going through the thread once again. It is still time, there's no shame of admitting one's error of judgement. Now the responsiblilty is only yours.
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abdooljabbar
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Post by abdooljabbar on Dec 15, 2007 23:36:03 GMT
yes this is the tazia of the 5th congregation...the photo was taken from a snapshot on a clip.and i guess you had it on hi5.for your kind info the hi5 is being used by my brother .yes you can put other photos of the processions...it will be good for others who dont know what is tazia procession. concerning my position against sayyads i dont have to reconsider it because i dont have any grudge against the true saadats. there are specfic amals performed so that you can get into contact with different malaic. of course it is the role of malaic.the roles of malaic are so varied and various.to know exactly if its a malaic or a jinn is something simple.this is another issue.when you study kabbalah and tasawwuf with a kamil shaykh you will learn all these sciences. infact even the 99 names of Allah is controlled by malaic...for example ya hafiz the malaic governing it are toura'il, sarakita'il and so on.to know more about this analyse the charts in naqshe sulaimani. its good that you have put this photo in the forum.go ahead if there are others.i was looking on my desktop but i couldnt find any.i think my brother put them all on hi5 you can have it. what i would like to do is to apologise for my lack of precision in my posts as i dont check my wordings and as a result u may get me wrong.I dont have much time right now to use pc...lol.dont worry during holidays i will be glad to give u all the details required. Imam rifaiRadi Allahu anhu and imam shadhiliRadi Allahu anhu were also sayyad.do i have any grudge against them?first of all im a great sinner infront of them and infront of true sadats. but when we know someone is really lying and saying pompously he is a sayid, i cant support him. you were talking about beard isnt it?is it because of my small beard?if yes then i will tell u why my beard is small in a private message.
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Post by musaafir on Dec 16, 2007 0:02:42 GMT
when you study kabbalah and tasawwuf with a kamil shaykh you will learn all these sciences. Assalaam Alaikum Brother why do you want to study kabbalah? I thought kabbalah was jewish black magic. Do you perform hazari when you summon these muakkalaat(malaik) that you mention? How do they give you messages?
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abdooljabbar
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Post by abdooljabbar on Dec 16, 2007 0:46:24 GMT
walaykumsalam dear brother who told you kabbalah is jewish black magic?its like tasawwuf for jews.there are many practices in kabbalah when you compare you will find it in islam as well.islamic sufism is moreorless the same as kabbalah but in a more explicit version,alhamdulillah.never forget that part of bible and part of the torah have been modified.but there are still lots of practices common with islam. jew as per history have inherited lots of knowledge and sciences as most prophets came there. 'les psaumes de David' for example,is everything false in it. do research and learn with an open mind you will find the various truth which are still here in those kitaabs and you will also find lots of similarities between islamic sufism and kabbalah. concerning malaic its another issue.i have already replied my brother saalik in a private message.i explained what i have learnt to him briefly.well its not that i dont want to share it with the members of the forum its just right now i dont have much time.as u can see,almost all my posts have been sent between 2am and 4 am. i will gladly give more details on everything i said as soon as im free inshallah. sorry brother
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Post by musaafir on Dec 16, 2007 1:44:27 GMT
Dear brother be it magic or tasawwuf the fact remains its still for jews,why delve into such ? Especially as they've been polluted with falsehood. This is very concerning dear brother,as no true sufi has incorporated kabbalah with islamic sufism to reach their goal, that being Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. All previous shariahs were abrogated with the coming of islam. As for Muakkalaat(malaik), brother do tell us about your experiences with them,then we an compare notes maybe as i too have gained valuable knowledge of them whilst sitting with an aalim who is an expert in this field and has ability to request their help on matters.
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Post by Saalik on Dec 16, 2007 7:27:54 GMT
islamic sufism is moreorless the same as kabbalah but in a more explicit version,alhamdulillah. Brother, when you have the time please be more explicit on this as the goal of sufism is not in any way like kaballah. Thanks for your permission to post the other photos, but i think it's more easy and best to put the link which I got at the right time while searching - do you agree. Think well, because you will have to answer to embarassing questions pertaining to the contents of that site, whether it is you or your brother who is responsible as you have said. Tasawwuf is not what mere spirituality is. Many, through their wrong notions have given the wrong image of Tasawwuf to the world via their odd practices and beliefs. If you have not visited the WORLD OF TASAWWUF yet please do so. Here is the link:-www.spiritualfoundation.net/P.S. You have mentioned about having sent me a p.m but , can you please resend .
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abdooljabbar
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Post by abdooljabbar on Dec 16, 2007 11:03:41 GMT
i sent you a message this morning...ok i will resend it later. concerning the link,well i personally dont have anything against putting it here....but before that i should ask my brother as he is the one who uses hi5.ok?i dont want to interfere in his private things without his permission and also expose it to the public. As far as i know my brother, i dont think he will object, he doesnt care what others say...still i will have to ask him before giving you the permission. concerning malaic ok we can discuss about it soon when i will be free.its good we can share our views. dear brother,theres no wrong in learning and analysing practices of other religions as long as we dont do shirk.its good to know how they proceed so that we can be prepared to face them,just in case we have to do so.nothing more nothing less.....islam is complete but we should know the strategy of the opposite groups,so that we can prepare our strategy accordingly. concerning the link and similarities between kabbalah and sufism, i will try to see the articles shaykh mohammad ansari damat barakatul aliya sent me if i didnt delete it.if so i will ask him to resend me the main points and will post it here.
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abdooljabbar
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Post by abdooljabbar on Dec 16, 2007 11:15:15 GMT
last thing before i go offlin,dear brother,its a fact that some people project a wrong image of tasawwuf.its the same for kabbalah. there are loads of differences between the kabballah practiced by the ahle kitaab and that practiced by common jews.At first i didn't kn ow anything about the difference in the 2 practices and also looked upon kabbalah as black magic until a 2 of my shuyukh explained it to me.one showed me the kabbalah practiced by ahle kitaab and that practiced by common jews while the other shaykh explained the true kabbalah with a more scientific approach so that i can easily find the similarities with islamic sufism.he explained it to be in terms of energies,vibrations,accupressure etc....if im given permission i can share what i learnt concerning vibrations and words...
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Post by whip on Dec 16, 2007 12:47:42 GMT
What is the purpose of the courtesy of asking permissions and so on when one can easily fall upon that controversial website by simply typing rifai and shazuli tariqa in the search bar of google. Since it is openly there exposed to the public on the web what the so called private things have to do with all this . I would have liked to know who is that Alim who is of the view that when a Sayyid yawns without putting his hand before his mouth cannot be a Sayyid. Does being a Sayyid means to be a SUPERNATURAL PERFECT BEING WITHOUT THE WEAKNESS OF A HUMAN BEING? The question is, does the alim who supports this view remains an alim or has been disqualified as an alim.
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