The Amman Message - the new fitnah

[SunniSevens]

musaafir said:

My dear brother i islam Mansoor, may i ask what all that above proves?
You've wasted your time in writing all that out and yet still have not proved how all the sects mentioned in this message are kaafirs as a whole,nor have you proved that any scholar of the Ahle Sunnah in the past has put a collective kufr fatwa on the whole of these sects(i.e. every single member is kaafir) and you wont either as there isn such a fatwa anyway.

Nobody declared the entire fraternity Kaafir - Can't you understand that? At the same time, we can't declare the antire fraternity Muslim. Since there are many within those sects that have Kufri Beliefs. It's that simple.

musaafir said:

Bahare Shariat is mostly a fiqh treatise which holds no such fatwas on these sects as a whole,but rather points out what would be and could be kufr or not.

Volume 1 of Bahaar-e-Shariat contains the essentials of Aqeedah.

musaafir said:

As per you and your like, every sect other than sunnis, has wrong or kufric beliefs,so if that means they all of their followers are kaafirs.

Stop reading what you think I wrote, rather read precisely what I wrote.

musaafir said:

Excuse me if i dont get involved in your tit for tat childish responses anymore that make no sense nor prove anything but are just made to please the nafs,as i'm a past that stage of life now.

Good for you, although, who or what exactly were pleasing when you hurled all them insults? (and still continue to do so)

In closing, I think I have provided enough backing to support my views. Do with it what you will. Should you back up yours, then it would be worthy to spend further time engaging you in discussion.

Ma'assalaam,
Mohamed Mansoor Qaaderi Razvi Zia'ee 'Attaari.

[Sister Nomee]

Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

ASALATU WASALAMU ALAYKA YA RASULLALLAH Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam

I have re opened this thread as I feel it is not fair on other forum members who would like to express their opinions on this cause.
I am requesting once again no more personal attacks on any nature, just stick to the relevant topic.

Any further upsetting comments/attacks this thread will be locked permanently.

JazakAllah Khairun

Wa'alaykum 'Assalam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

[Slave of Ahle-Baith]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

ASALATU WASALAMU ALAYKA YA RASULLALLAH Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam

Naare Haideri Yaa Ali

I agree with brother Musaafir,whats wrong with this message.

We cant call the whole sect as Kaafir.

Sayyiduna A'la Hadrat's (radi Allahu anhu) cautiousness in declaring a person a Kaafir is to be noted in many of his books. In his book, "Subhaanus Subooh", he academically destroys the arguments of Molwi Ismail Dehlwi. Yet, at the end of the book, A'la Hadrat says, "The Ulema have not termed this individual as a Kaafir, therefore, one has to be careful."



Once again, refuting the arguments of Molwi Ismail Dehlwi and a few of his "infamous" followers in another book, "Al Kaukabatush Sha'haabiya", A'la Hadrat (radi Allahu anhu) says, "In our opinion (the opinion of Islam), to term a person a Kaafir and to control one's tongue is an act of extreme precaution and analysis."



In another treatise entitled, "Sallus Suyooful Hindiya", A'la Hadrat (radi Allahu anhu) states: "There is indeed a difference between accepting words of Kufr and branding a person a Kaafir. We have to be extremely careful. We have to remain silent. If there is the minutest possibility that he is still a Muslim, we should fear terming that person a Kaafir."



In his book, "Subhaanus Subooh", Sayyiduna A'la Hadrat (radi Allahu anhu) says, "We do not give any comment on the Kufr of Molwi Ismail Dehlwi, simply because Sayyiduna Rasulullah has warned us against terming the Ahle Qibla as Kaafirs. (It is only possible) to term a person a Kaafir if his Kufr becomes clear as the sun and the minutest indication does not remain that he is a Muslim." (Tamheed-e-Imaan, pg. 42-43)

From the above statements, we clearly see how careful A'la Hadrat (radi Allahu anhu) was, in terming a person a Kaafir. He was merely fulfilling his duty as a conscientious and responsible Muslim. The fault was indeed of those individuals, who even after being warned, remained steadfast in their own beliefs and words of Kufr.

Hazrat Allama Syed Ahmad Saeed Kazmi Shah Sahib Rahmatullahi Aley said "Concerning the issue of kufr, our fundamental practice has always been that when any individual commits the act of kufr through his statements or actions, we do not delay in rendering him a kaafir, whether he is a deo-bandi or a ber-lvi, belongs to the league or to the congress, nachrey or nadvi, we do not differentiate from among them or from our own. Inequality is not a virtue from among the righteous. This does not imply that if one member of the league commits kufr, the entire membership (may Allaah forbid) becomes kufaar or if one nadwi is guilty of kufr then (Allaah forbid) the entire nadwis become kufaar. We only confer kufr for a few deo-bandis for their contemptuous statements and refuse to claim the entire deo-bandi fellowship as kufaar. Our noble elders and we have not clearly announced just anyone from deo-band or luknow as kaafir. To us only those particular individuals are kaafir who have made insolent remarks against Allaah, our beloved Prophet Sall Allaahu Aleyhi Wa Sallam and others of piety and chastity and refused to repent even though being constantly condemned. Including those who recognize those impudent people as momin and see them as their leaders and imam. Besides them, we have not referred to anyone, who claims to be a Muslim, as a kaafir. Those whom we have certified as kaafir, if searched for, will be few in numbers. Anyone else who resides in deo-band and in bereilly, is neither a kaafir nor a memeber of the league or nadwi. We deem all Muslims as Muslims" - from the book Al Haqqul Mobeen page 24-25 [/b]

Harr Mast Pukare Ali Ali

[Haideri-Qalander]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

ASALATU WASALAMU ALAYKA YA RASULLALLAH Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam

Good reply brother Slave of Ahle-Baith!!!!!!.

[ank92]

I agree those who directly or indirectly make insults are deemed as kafirs however the majority of the followers and members of the deo and wahbi sect are gumrah. However their gumra'iyyat misguidedness is very damaging if we start mingling and mixing with them. Therefore a strong no to the Amman poll.

[Sag-e-Jilan]

amateurnaatkhwan said:

I agree those who directly or indirectly make insults are deemed as kafirs however the majority of the followers and members of the deo and wahbi sect are gumrah. However their gumra'iyyat misguidedness is very damaging if we start mingling and mixing with them. Therefore a strong no to the Amman poll.

ALL auliya Mujddids said that these sects as a category are moslims. for instance, see sharah maqasid by sahrif jurjani, sharah mawaqif by taftazani, sharah aqaid nasfi.

notice ismail dehlawi wrote taqweyatul emaan and is of the worst najdis but he is not called kafir by Aala hazrat Rehmatullahi ’Alaih

[SunniSevens]

qadiri said:

notice ismail dehlawi wrote taqweyatul emaan and is of the worst najdis but he is not called kafir by Aala hazrat Rehmatullahi ’Alaih

The reason 'Ala Hazrat didn't give Fatwa-e-Takfir on Ismail Dehlwi was because he had died before 'Ala Hazrat could confront him on his writings. Despite this, 'Ala Hazrat clearly says that he personally would not call Ismail Dehlwi a Kaafir, but would NOT stop anyone from calling Ismail Dehlwi a Kaafir.

Allah and His Rasool know best.

[Slave of Ahle-Baith]

sunnisevens said:

qadiri said:

notice ismail dehlawi wrote taqweyatul emaan and is of the worst najdis but he is not called kafir by Aala hazrat Rehmatullahi ’Alaih

The reason 'Ala Hazrat didn't give Fatwa-e-Takfir on Ismail Dehlwi was because he had died before 'Ala Hazrat could confront him on his writings. Despite this, 'Ala Hazrat clearly says that he personally would not call Ismail Dehlwi a Kaafir, but would stop stop anyone from calling Ismail Dehlwi a Kaafir.

Allah and His Rasool know best.

Same way brother Ala Hazrat alaihir rahma'h did'nt Fatwa on other sect , but Fatwa on Individual's. If you could read my post and the comment of Hazrat Allama Syed Ahmad Saeed Kazmi Shah Sahib Rahmatullahi Aley.

[Javed]

sunnisevens said:

qadiri said:

notice ismail dehlawi wrote taqweyatul emaan and is of the worst najdis but he is not called kafir by Aala hazrat Rehmatullahi ’Alaih

The reason 'Ala Hazrat didn't give Fatwa-e-Takfir on Ismail Dehlwi was because he had died before 'Ala Hazrat could confront him on his writings. Despite this, 'Ala Hazrat clearly says that he personally would not call Ismail Dehlwi a Kaafir, but would stop stop anyone from calling Ismail Dehlwi a Kaafir.

Allah and His Rasool know best.

I am sure some contemporary scholars have passed takfir on him, i have read somewhere, will try and find the source and post.

I am also strongly against the Amman message.

[safia]

Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

There is no way you can unite with the wahabis or pray salah behind them. I voted strongly oppose. This will cause more confusuion for the already weak sunnis who are ignorant of the wahabis.

[ahmad786]

safia said:

Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

There is no way you can unite with the wahabis or pray salah behind them. I voted strongly oppose. This will cause more confusuion for the already weak sunnis who are ignorant of the wahabis.

Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

Dont think this is about praying salah behind them. We just dont mix with them or accept any of them in our circles. So we shouldnt accept anything in writing from them.

[star]

Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu


I strongly oppose it.