The knowledge of Sahaba?

[light]

Dear Daylight,

'Ubaydullah has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Was the Prophet Illiterate or Literate?


The knowledge of Sahaba?


My Answer:

*Imam Abu Hanifa *Radi Allahu anhu writes that *Haaris Ibn La’man *Radi Allahu anhu and *Haaris Bin Na’man* Radi Allahu anhu have said;

“ Once I went to Our Beloved Prophet Sayyedina Muhammad Mustufa Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam who asked me a question,
“ O Haaris, in what state did you pass the day?”

I replied; “ As a True Muslim”

Our Beloved prophet Sayyedina Muhammad Mustufa Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam asked me the state of my faith”

Haaris ibn Na’man Radi Allahu anhu replied;

*“ I see the Throne of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and the people of the Paradise helping each other and the people of Hell lamenting in Hell. I see in front of me eight Heavens and seven Hells as clear as the Idol worshippers see their idols. I can recognise each individual jus like a miller can recognise the wheat from barley, ie. That is, who is to go to Paradise and who is to be found in Hell? In front of me people are like fish and ants. Shall I stay silent or continue to speak?”*

Our Beloved Prophet Sayyedina Muhammad Mustufa Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam told him to stop ands say no more.

*(Fiqah Akbar, Imam Abu Hanifa; Jam –e- Qabir, Imam Suyuti)*


Question by Salafi:

Can you please provide the isnaad for this quote?

And if possible, the comments of the Imams before and after the quote from their books?

I'm interested in the context in which it was mentioned, and if it truly is authentic in the first place. Jazakallah Khayr.



Please help to refute this Salafi.

[Abdul Rafiq]

Question by Salafi:

Can you please provide the isnaad for this quote?

And if possible, the comments of the Imams before and after the quote from their books?

I'm interested in the context in which it was mentioned, and if it truly is authentic in the first place. Jazakallah Khayr.

Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

The above response is typical of the wahabi type to doubt and question anything that they have no knowledge of. Fiqh-e-Akbar is Imam Abu Hanifahs Radi Allahu anhu most famous work, it is upto to them to try and provide proofs if they wish to challenge its authenticity.

[fatma]

there is no need for you to run around after this salafi just tell him i have given you the quote if you have any problem believing it then you come up with the proof of it not being authentic. well that's what i heard Ghazi-E-Millat say in a taqrir once anyway.

[Ya Taaj Ash-Sharia]

The Usool is that everything is accepted until proven wrong, because these Suurs Salafis are objecting they have to bring proof. Imam Suyutis book is Jami Us Sageer as opposed to Kabeer.

Ibn Humaam Alaih Rahmah states that even if there is a Hadith without any Sanad the Hadith will not be rejected.

So tell the Salafi to bring proof, even if the Sanad is daeef (I am not saying it is), the matan may not be.

I have read this Hadith In Shaa Allah I will ask my Ustaad.

Fi Amaanillah

[light]

Thank you all for your great responses!

His response:
Quote:Salafi :

Because I am not the one who posted the narration brother, you are. So the burden of proof is upon you.

My response:
Since you have that “devilish” doubt in your mind and in your heart regarding the authenticity you should at least have the decency and the required knowledge to refute!

Don’t forget it is you who is in denial!!!

His response:
Denial of what? I have not affirmed the narration nor have I denied it. I simply asked you to bring proof that it is authentic.

Akhi, don't forget that you are the one who have yet to bring the level of authenticity regarding this quote.

The scholars have warned people not to think that just because they narrate something it is necessarily what they believe. I will quote Ibn Jareer At-Tabari to show the attitude of some of the early scholars:

Let him who examines this book of mine know that I have relied, as regards everything I mention therein which I stipulate to be described by me, solely upon what has been transmitted to me by way of reports which I cite therein and traditions which I ascribe to their narrators, to the exclusion of what may be apprehended by rational argument or deduced by the human mind, except in very few cases.

This is because knowledge of the reports of men of the past and of contemporaneous views of men of the present do not reach the one who has not witnessed them nor lived in their times except through the accounts of reporters and the transmission of transmitters, to the exclusion of rational deduction and mental inference.

Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us.

(Ibin Jarîr al-Tabarî, Târîkh al-Tabarî: Târîkh al-Umam wal-Mulûk, 1997, Volume I, Dâr al-Kutub al-cIlmiyyah, Beirut (Lebanon), pp. 13.)

So the scholars have warned people not to think that just because they narrate something it is necessarily what they believe or that it is necessarily true. There are many works of hadeeth by prominent scholars that have hundreds or even thousands of weak narrations, like the Sunan of Ad-Daraqutni, Sunan Ibn Maajah, Musnad of Imam Ahmad and many others. Again, we have to see what the scholars themselves said about it.


My response:

Fiqh-e-Akbar is Imam Abu Hanifahs Radi Allahu anhu most famous work.

I have given you the quote, you have any problems believing in it then you come up with the proof of it not being authentic.

Ubaydullah, provide proofs if YOU so wish to challenge its authenticity.

Quote: Ubaydullah,
“Akhi, don't forget that you are the one who have yet to bring the level of authenticity regarding this quote.”

You forget:

Ubaydullah, again and again it’s you that is Questioning the authenticity.

So the burden of proof is upon you, not upon me!

Don’t forget:

Ibn Humaam Alaih Rahmah states that even if there is a Hadith without any Sanad the Hadith will not be rejected.

So Ubaydullah, The Usool is that everything is accepted until proven wrong!

Here it is once again!

*(Fiqah Akbar, Imam Abu Hanifa; Jam –e- Qabir, Imam Suyuti)*

[musaafir]

light said:

I will quote Ibn Jareer At-Tabari to show the attitude of some of the early scholars:

Let him who examines this book of mine know that I have relied, as regards everything I mention therein which I stipulate to be described by me, solely upon what has been transmitted to me by way of reports which I cite therein and traditions which I ascribe to their narrators, to the exclusion of what may be apprehended by rational argument or deduced by the human mind, except in very few cases.

This is because knowledge of the reports of men of the past and of contemporaneous views of men of the present do not reach the one who has not witnessed them nor lived in their times except through the accounts of reporters and the transmission of transmitters, to the exclusion of rational deduction and mental inference.

Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us.

(Ibin Jarîr al-Tabarî, Târîkh al-Tabarî: Târîkh al-Umam wal-Mulûk, 1997, Volume I, Dâr al-Kutub al-cIlmiyyah, Beirut (Lebanon), pp. 13.)

Imam Tabari was refferring to that particular peice of work only i.e. tarikh al tabari which is largely an unauthenticated history book(although a very useful piece of work),he was clearly stating that anything that people find wrong should not be attributed to him but those that he is relating from.

It is not an Hadith compilation!

Whereas jami al Kabir of As Suyuti Rahmatullahi ’alayh is an actual authenticated hadith compilation.

Funny how they quote anything that comes in their way just to win an argument.

There is so much written (authenticated works) on the miracles of the sahaba e kiram in books i.e. hadrat Abu bakr As siddique Radi Allahu anhu informing of the birth of a child before hand or hadrat Umar Radi Allahu anhu calling to hadrat sarya Radi Allahu anhu
from the mimbar and telling him to avoid the enemy very long distance away etc

This is actually a closed chapter.

[light]

Salafi response:

The Prophet said: "But the burden of proof is upon the claimant..."

An excellent hadith which al-Bayhaqi and others have related. Parts of it is in the two Sahih books. It is #33 of Imam Nawawi's Arba'een.

You are the claimant, who has brought this hadeeth forth using it as if it was authentic, so the burden lies upon you to provide proof of its authenticity if asked. I do not understand why you are getting upset over this request.

Bring the proof again akhi. I doubt al-Haafidh Ibn Hummam would make such a black and white statement without explaining it or there is a context to it.

Secondly the Salaf have said that the Isnaad is the religion. Abdullah bin al-Mubarak said:

The Isnaad is from the Deen (religion), if it wasn’t for the Isnad anyone would say anything he wished.

Related by Imaam Muslim in the introduction of his Sahih - see Sahih al-Muslim (ed. M.F. ‘Abdul Baqi. 5 vols., Cairo 1374/1955), [1:15] & Sahih al-Muslim bi Sharh an-Nawawi (18 vols. in 6, Cairo,1349) [1:87].

Al Haafidh al ‘Alaae said, may Allah have mercy upon him, in Jamiat- Tahseel pg. 58, and in Saheeh Muslim on Ibn Seereen that Ibn Seereen said:

"They would not ask about the isnad: But when the fitnah happened, they said: Name to us your men. So the narrations of the Ahl al-Sunnah would be accepted, while those of the Ahl al-Bid 'ah would not be accepted."

Sahih al-Muslim bi Sharh an-Nawawi (Introduction) Chapter : The Isnaad is from the Deen, p.257 [Maktaba Nazaar Mustafa al-Baaz - Riyadh [1st edition]

It is a severe matter to narrate hadeeth without knowing its authenticity because it can be tantamount to lying upon the Prophet salalahu alayhi wa sallam. I advise you my brother, to refrain from doing so. May Allaah protect us and help us.

That is not what I have asked you for. This does not prove in the least whether the hadeeth is authentic or not. Refer back to the quote of Ibn Jareer At-Tabari.

[light]

Thankyou all once again!

My response with your HELP!


Imam Tabari was refferring to that particular piece of work only i.e. tarikh al tabari which is largely an unauthenticated history book(although a very useful piece of work),he was clearly stating that anything that people find wrong should not be attributed to him but those that he is relating from.

It is not an Hadith compilation!

Where as jami al Kabir of As Suyuti Rahmatullahi ’alayh is an actual authenticated hadith compilation.

Funny how YOU quote anything that comes in your way just to win an argument.

There is so much written (authenticated works) on the miracles of the sahaba e kiram in books i.e. Hadrat Abu bakr As siddique Radi Allahu anhu informing of the birth of a child before hand or Hadrat Umar Radi Allahu anhu calling to Hadrat sarya Radi Allahu anhu from the mimbar and telling him to avoid the enemy very long distance away etc

Sahaba had the knowledge!

So the burden is on you “PAL” to disprove my Quote and that the Sahaba did not have the Knowledge!

By the way its you that is getting upset, don’t forget your own Quote “I don't understand why you feel the need to attack me,”

Quote:Ubaydullah,

“It is a severe matter to narrate hadeeth without knowing its authenticity because it can be tantamount to lying upon the Prophet salalahu alayhi wa sallam. I advise you my brother, to refrain from doing so.”

Listen, you believe that my Quote was not authentic then disprove it!

SEE ITS VERY SIMPLE!!!

Or is that so difficult for you to do?

[PBUH]

Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu


Astagfirallah, this guy sounds desperate but a typical salafi.

Quote:Ubaydullah,

“It is a severe matter to narrate hadeeth without knowing its authenticity because it can be tantamount to lying upon the Prophet salalahu alayhi wa sallam. I advise you my brother, to refrain from doing so.”

What is the point in discussing anything with them, i mean you would practically have to carry two truck loads of books just to have a conversation.

''Hello my name is pbuh, and you are ? ''

Salafi - Before i give my name, how do i know that you are who you say you are ?

''I just told you my name, its pbuh, why dont you believe me''

Salafi- What proof do you have ?

'' okay, here is my birth certificate !''

Salafi - That doesnt mean anything, anyone can get a birth certificate and it doesnt prove your name, where is the isnad, i need the link going back to your ancestors right back to Hazrat Adam alayhis 'salam, then we can start .........

if you catch my drift ;D


Anyways, you could always the Imam sahb here brother light if it helps?

[light]

Salafi response:

I was going to write out a full response to your post above, but then I remembered a hadeeth of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam which, when the meaning is translated, states:

“I guarantee a house in the outskirts of Paradise to the one who forsakes argument even when he is in the right.”

Reported by Abu Dawood, 5/150; Saheeh al-Jaami’, 1464

I am grateful to Allaah for guiding me to remember this hadeeth.

I prefer to acquire the house in Jannah, and I say Jazakallah Khayr for providing me the opportunity to make that decision.

Also, since you have made it clear that you are unaware of the ahadeeth's level of authenticity and so that you do not further lead others astray by quoting inauthentic ahadeeth,

know that Imam 'Uqaily said in al-Du'afaa' 4/455 that this hadeeth was not reported by any authentic chain of narrators.

Therefore, the hadeeth you have quoted is inauthentic.

I think the point I was trying to make is clear brother.

So I leave you with an advise: It is a severe matter to narrate hadeeth without knowing its authenticity because it can be tantamount to lying upon the Prophet salalahu alayhi wa sallam.

I once again advise you to refrain from doing so.

May Allaah guide me and you.

Now that the Salafi has Admitted and given his proof:

“Therefore, the hadeeth you have quoted is inauthentic.”

The Hadith I quoted was from this site:
ashraf786.proboards15.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1194518462

I have not jet responded to his post above!

Please post required information to refute this Salafi.

[musaafir]

light said:

Now that the Salafi has Admitted and given his proof:

“Therefore, the hadeeth you have quoted is inauthentic.”

Imam Abu Hanifas sanad's were nothing less than sahih themselves since he was a tabiee and there would only be 2 or 3
narrators between himself and the sahaabi e kiraam narrating it.

But of course jaahil salafis would insist he only knew few hadith(maza'Allah),this is just pure ignorance outright.
Even if that was the case it would be weak in sanad(chain of narrators) not neccassarily in matn(content),this does not mean its not a hadith,rather no muhadith in the world can dare to call
even a weak hadith as a non hadith.

All they can say say that there is a weakness in the one of the narrators only.

according to usul of hadith even daeef hadith are acceptable in encouraging good and in describing fadhail and amal.
Infact Imam Ahmed is reported to have had the opinion that weak hadith are accepted as long as no sahih are opposing them.

Do you have a strong hadith that categorically states that the sahaba had none of this spiritual knowledge at any stage of their lives?

I doubt if you will find one.

No muhaddith of any great calibre has called this a forgery,so what is the problem?

Ok lets say it is weak for arguments sake,with category of weaknes(daeef) does it fall under as there are near 50 different grades of daeef according to eminant muhaditheen?

[fatma]

if you ask me you should just ignore him as it's obvious that you brother light do not have the proper knowledge to fight this argument (no offence) and let him stay in the dark you have tried and that is what counts. remember that whatever you say to this salafi he will always come back with some loop hole so i don't see the point of wasting your time with him instead why don't you talk to someone willing to listen to you and believe you?

[musaafir]

Brother Light!

Do as Sister Fatima says, since debating amongst those without knowledge is not really allowed and can prove detrimental to ones imaan.

Its clear that the salafi has no real knowledge and with all due respect nor do you!

Anyway why waste time in debates this blessed month when you could be reciting durood o salaaam instead?

[Anwar K]

Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

I remember reading that about The 3 types of Knowledge when sister Ashiqerasool posted it a bit back.

What the salfis cant grasp is this

This proves that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has granted certain special powers to his creatures as He pleases.

When they have mental block on the powers of Nabi karim Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam, the sahaba kiram and auliya kiram all their brain cells cease to function, thats why they cant grasp this hadith.

[light]

Thank you all for your help!!!

Thank you sister Fatma and brother Musafir, I know that I do not have the relevant knowledge to refute this salafi.

Sorry, but that is the reason why I asked for “ALL” your help!

Little wonder our young generation is so confused and start following their corrupt Aqeeda!

What a SHAME on me for not having the right Knowledge!!!



Abu Hurayra's
Two Vessels of Knowledge
by Sh. G. F. Haddad

www.livingislam.org/n/ahtv_e.html


Thank you all for taking part once again.

[PBUH]

light said:

Thank you all for your help!!!

Thank you sister Fatma and brother Musafir, I know that I do not have the relevant knowledge to refute this salafi.

Sorry, but that is the reason why I asked for “ALL” your help!

Little wonder our young generation is so confused and start following their corrupt Aqeeda!

What a SHAME on me for not having the right Knowledge!!!



Abu Hurayra's
Two Vessels of Knowledge
by Sh. G. F. Haddad

www.livingislam.org/n/ahtv_e.html


Thank you all for taking part once again.

Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

That is a very good article by Shaykh Gibril.

Brother, i would have liked to have helped you as well if i could but i also lack the knowledge and this topic was beyond me, i am sure sister fatma and brother mussafir dont mean it to sound like it did, and they also havent the knowledge either so were all in the same boat. One thing we do all agree on is that the wahabi has less knowledge than us. There are some other brothers who may have been able to help but they havent been on for a while but i recommend you ask the Imam at the bottom of the page, now he definitely has the knowledge so please dont give up, i wont if you wont.

[musaafir]

pbuh said:

, i am sure sister fatma and brother mussafir dont mean it to sound like it did, and they also havent the knowledge either so were all in the same boat.

As the brother states i for certain did not mean it in a derisory sense,but as a warning that the ulema give, as there are many pitfalls in debating when one does not possess the right
knowledge (for debating)i.e. its not just knowledge involved but mantic(logic ) etc too, involved in it, to be a successful debator.

Brother PBUH i have never stated that i have any knowledge nor do i do so now

The fact is that i have no knowledge !

[chishti]

Brother Musafir don't be so modest...you're a mine of information...ofcourse thatcher closed down the mines but hey....you're the last one left

[Sister Nomee]

chishti said:

Brother Musafir don't be so modest...you're a mine of information...ofcourse thatcher closed down the mines but hey....you're the last one left

;D I second that

Wa'alaykum 'Assalam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

[king786]

Assalamu 'Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

Brother LIGHT WELL DONE - EXCELLENT DEBATE WITH THE DEVIATED

PROPHET Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam SAID SEEK KNOWLEDGE EVEN IF YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO TO CHINA .

SO BROTHER LIGHT CONTINUE YOUR DEBATES WITH SLAFI WE NEED EACH AND EVERY AHLE SUNNAH PERSON TO DEBATE AGAINST THE WAHHABI , DONT WORRY ABOUT KNOWLEDGE FOR ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam IS WITH YOU AND HELP YOU AND OPEN YOUR HEART AND MIND TO UNSEEN KNOWLEDGE AND HELP YOU WHEN YOU DEBATE AGAINST THESE DEVILS , FOR EVERY THING IS ON THE INTENTION OF THE PERSON , IF YOUR INTENTION IS TO DEFEND PROPHET Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam , SAHABA Radi Allahu anhu AND AWLIA Rahmatullahi ’alayh THEN DON'T CARE FOR KNOWLEDGE WHEN SOMEBODY INSULTS PROPHET Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa , Sallam WOULD YOU WAIT IF ANYBODY INSULTS YOUR MOTHER AND FATHER -, WOULD YOU GO AND LEARN SOME KNOWLEDGE AND REFUTE THE PERSON WHO INSULTS YOUR PARENTS ? NO YOU WOULD NOT WAIT A SECOND , SO JUMP INTO BATTLE WITH THESE DEVIANTS , NEVER TURN YOU BACK AND RUN AWAY FROM A BATTLE LIKE A COWARD - ESPECIALLY WHEN THE BATTLE IS ABOUT THE HONOR OF PROPHET Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam .

ALWAYS MAKE YOURSELF WELL PREPARED FOR THE NEXT BATTLE OR ENCOUNTER WITH THESE DEVIANTS BY GAINING MORE KNOWLEDGE FROM BOOKS AND SUNNI IMAMS -

BUT REMEMBER YOU STRENGTH IS ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam AND NOT KNOWLEDGE , IT IS BECAUSE OF THEM YOU WIN AND NOT BECAUSE OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE , SO WHEN YOU GAIN MORE AND MORE KNOWLEDGE , NEVER EVER THINK IT THE MEAN FOR YOUR SUBSEQUENT VICTORIES AGAINST THE DEVIANTS - BUT ALWAYS PUT YOUR TRUST IN ALLAH

AND NEVER EVER TRUST YOUR ISLAMIC KNOWLEDGE !!!

MAY ALLAH AND HIS BELOVED Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam BE WITH YOU ALWAYS - PEACE